Herbal remedies for sleep with Maria Noel Groves

Plant Love Radio Episode 81 - Herbal Remedies for Sleep with Maria Noël Groves

I've really come to appreciate some of those more rebuilding and tonic nervous system herbs as being phenomenally helpful. And they generally have even fewer side effects and herb drug interactions, and can be enjoyed day or night without being too sedating, but still being really supportive at nighttime.

You are listening to Plant Love, Radio episode number 81.

Welcome to Plant Love Radio, a place where you'll discover how to create a balanced, vibrant, and resilient life through the wonders of herbal medicine. I'm your host, Lana Camiel, a college professor Drug information, pharmacist and an herbalist you love My amazing guests, herbal teachers, clinicians, medicine makers, growers, and artists.

Thank you for joining me on this adventure. Let's get the show started.

Hello friends. Welcome back to Plant Love Radio. I'm excited to be here after a bit of a pause and bring you discussions with some of my favorite people.

In today's conversation, I'm joined again by renowned clinical herbalist, author and educator, Maria Noël Groves. She runs an herbal business called Wintergreen Botanicals nestled in the pine forest of New Hampshire. Maria is the author of the best sellers, Body Into Balance and Grow Your Own Herbal Remedies and she just released a new book Herbal Remedies for Sleep.

Today, we'll go deep into the world of plants for better sleep as she explores the inspiration behind her new book on herbal sleep remedies as well as your own personal journey into herbalism that was sparked by insomnia. We talk about some of your favorite herbal heavy hitters, like valerian and passionflower and the other ones, as well as gentle allies, milky oats, lemonbalm, motherwort, and many other ones. We also look at the dosage forms, her favorite resources and so much more..

Maria and her publisher Storey Publishing are offering a copy of her latest book as a raffle prize for this episode of Plant Love Radio. To get entered into the raffle please head over to https://plantloveradio.substack.com, find the notes for this episode and share some of your favorite moments from our conversation in the comments. One quick request to receive the book you have to live in the United States.

In addition for our paid members, you will find Maria's three favorite recipes for ashwagandha chai, herbal sleep pillow, and ashwagandha golden milk under podcast bonuses. Thank you so much for your continued support!

For all resources discussed today, please head over to https://plantloveradio.com/ and look for the show notes for Herbal Remedies for Sleep episode.

Whether you struggle with an occasional insomnia or chronic sleep issues, this warm and insightful discussion is brimming with Maria's practical down to earth herbal wisdom. Grab a mug of soothing herbal tea and get ready to explore the rejuvenating power of plans for better sleep. Enjoy!

Warm Welcome and Introduction

Maria, good morning. So excited to see you. Welcome.

Thank you. It's always lovely to be here chatting with you. Thank you for having me.

So delighted. We haven't seen each other for a while, but we've done two interviews and both of them were somehow associated with the release of each book for you. In your previous works such as Body and Balance, you explore holistic approaches to health.

Exploring the Inspiration Behind 'Herbal Remedies for Sleep'

And I wanted to talk today, as you're releasing a new wonderful book, Herbal Remedies for Sleep I want to ask you what inspired you to delve into this particular topic specifically?

I'll be honest, it wasn't my idea. It was actually the publishers approached me and said, hey, we'd love to do a deeper dive into a topic that we cover in The first two books, Body Into Balance and Grow Your Own Herbal Remedies, but to explore it a little bit more and also make it so that it's very accessible for somebody who maybe doesn't want to learn everything about herbs, not that everything about herbs is in the other books, but to cover a more expansive topic, but people who are just interested in a specific health goal and looking for natural options. And so they pitched to me the idea of doing a book on sleep. And I said that's a fantastic idea because we always have issues around sleep and stress and relaxation in our culture and our society, but it seems like in the last few years, things have really ratcheted up even more.

I know I definitely see that in the clinic. Also my students share with me what their struggles are. And then also in my own personal life, these are things that have been challenging for me. I won't go into the whole story because we probably have covered it in a prior interview.

The Personal Journey to Herbalism

But for me, my approach into herbalism was around insomnia and panic attacks after a traumatic event in college.

And so some of the herbs we cover in the book are some of the very first herbs that I ever worked with for my own health. And then from there, fascinating it launched a deeper interest in herbalism and holistic health at large. And I have some useful tools in my toolkit, some wonderful plants and allies to support me in my sleep when things do feel out of balance.

And that for me has definitely been one of my own personal taskmasters. When things get out of balance, the very first area that affects me is sleep.

Deep Dive into Sleep, Stress, and Herbal Remedies

And so it's a topic I really love to work with and share with others as well, because while the herbs are not the end all be all, and we will talk about other aspects of supporting sleep in the book, they are enormous allies and often really helpful and have Fewer side effects, fewer downstream negative effects than some of the conventional options that people might turn to and often are really helpful.

So we're mostly focused on sleep in the book, but we do cover some information about stress because certainly that's very tied in as well as herbal supports that are more just for relaxing the nervous system or nourishing the nervous system.

And One of many things that are new in this book that aren't in the other ones is really diving into what some of the reasons why somebody might not sleep, some of the how and why physiology we get a little deeper in.

But I find in my clinical practice and also in my personal health, it really helps to figure out why isn't somebody sleeping. And It's not typically about just taking a relaxing herb, especially if somebody's older or, having chronic sleep issues, often there's some other thing at play.

And trying to figure out what those other things may be and support those at the same time as helping us relax can often be more important in the long term than just say, I'm going to take this sleep blend and call it all good. It usually isn't as successful.

You mentioned that there are other things that might come into someone's mind when they approach sleep. Can you talk a little bit about this? What do you do before you actually turn to herbs?

Addressing Sleep Beyond Herbs: Practical Tips and Health Insights

So there are a couple of different ways to go about it. One of the very basic things is sleep hygiene, and I think this is very widely accepted. You can go on government websites and all of that to give you tips on sleep hygiene, where, not eating late at night, limiting the use of stimulants, especially later in the day, keeping the room dark, keeping the room a little cooler, having a little wind down, limiting your exposure to artificial light, especially as you get in those hours before bedtime.

Other stimulants, which might be, checking email before bed, or scrolling on social media, or watching a scary movie, all those things can be really supportive. Alcohol is a biggie that I think a lot of people, wish wasn't true, especially as we age. Even one or two drinks can be enough to disrupt sleep, especially in folks who are postmenopausal.

We tend to be a much more sensitive group when it comes to sleep disturbances. So those are just some basics, but then there are some other just health related things that people may not realize can have a profound impact on sleep. So if you're going through perimenopause or your postmenopausal, those hormonal shifts make it much more likely to have More stress hormones going on in your system as well as less resilience to those stress hormones.

You have fewer of those sort of relaxing feel good hormones to help comfort you because both progesterone and estrogen have a very kind of comforting effect. And so we often see people as they go through those hormonal changes, find that they're not sleeping well. Sometimes it's transient. Sometimes you hear, I just haven't slept well in decades since, going through these changes.

Blood sugar is another real biggie, and that is one of the podcasts that we had previously was talking about blood sugar support, which is important for a lot of people, not just folks who have diabetes or prediabetes, but glucose spikes that then crash in the middle of the night can be one cause of people waking up. So having, a diet that is not too much at night, but also very blood sugar regulating. I love the work of The Glucose Goddess Jessie, I can't recall her last name, but Glucose Goddess has all sorts of tips for quote unquote flattening the glucose curve. And those are just a few little tips and tricks that help.

Aviva Romm did a really great interview with her that kind of outlined some of those tips and their books and things. But that can be really helpful.

Sleep apnea, that's something I really learned a lot from Thomas Easley and increasing my awareness of looking for some of the potential signs that somebody might have sleep apnea, which is best diagnosed in the heavier bodied guys, who snore like chainsaws, like they're most apt to get identified as having sleep apnea, but it can affect a lot of other people. My clinical practice is mostly middle aged and older cis women. And we definitely see that being one of the triggers. So keeping an eye out for that. And an important note for that is that if somebody has sleep apnea, the stronger sedatives usually are going to make the situation worse because they're depressing that muscle tone even further in sleep, relaxing those muscles, depressing the respiratory response. And so folks may find that they either feel worse or they may notice that they're waking up more in the night with something like that. So that's not the only reason somebody may not respond well to the standard sedative herbs, but it's one of the big ones.

So those are a few of the main ones that I might keep an eye out for that. I tend to see the most often, but there are many other things. Things that people may already be aware of. So things like restless legs or pain or having acid reflux or, there are many other things that can disrupt people's sleep.

And so addressing that at the same time as supporting a healthy nervous system response will usually be more effective in the long run. Stress, of course, I miss the biggie, but stress is another big one that can affect people. Those are a few odds and ends that we cover in more depth in the book, but if there's anything that you wanted to talk more about now, I'm more than happy to chat.

Sure.

Unveiling the Structure of the New Book

So I wanted to ask you what is the structure of the book? Can you talk a little bit more? And so what specifically does it cover? Do we talk about the conditions and then different herbs and recipes or tell us a little bit more so we know what to expect?

Yeah, so the way that I've organized it is very similar to the way that I organize a lot of my classes that people tend to enjoy, so we start off with just some basic information, some statistics on sleep, why sleep matters, what happens that's positive when we're getting adequate sleep, what happens that's negative when we're not getting adequate sleep. In the herbal world Sleep is one of the most important things for over all health, not just in the herbal world, in a lot of health fields, we recognize that this is super duper important.

One of the things that we really focus quite a bit on as a foundational aspect of health is sleep. And it's one of the key areas that if things aren't going well in somebody's health and Their sleep is off, oftentimes supporting folks sleep is going to be really instrumental for helping everything else be in a better place. So we talk quite a bit about that.

We do some anatomy and physiology to understand what sets us up for better sleep or worse sleep. We dive into some of those reasons why, okay, we did the sleep hygiene.

We've did all the things that we're supposed to do, and then we're still not sleeping well. So trying to do some sleuthing on what other things might be going on. to address that with a few little tips and tricks, but mostly just being aware of those potential saboteurs of sleep, if you will.

And then we go into the more herbal portions where we go into herbs that support our stress response. Particularly some of the adaptogens. I'm a bigger fan of nervines or nervines than adaptogens when it comes to stress, but I think the adaptogens play a role as well. So we cover a little bit of adaptogens, especially the ones that are a little bit more of a relaxing adaptogen in nature.

So if anybody doesn't know, adaptogens are herbs that help our body adapt to stress so that we're more resilient to them. And oftentimes they are more stimulating, which sometimes is okay. During the day, having a little bit of that might be okay. And then for some people who are super sensitive and I myself, I'm in that really super sensitive camp, they might find that even that little bit of stimulation during the day is disruptive for sleep at night. And and so there's a place for them, but not always.

So we cover some favorites like holy basil and maybe some that you haven't heard of that have some adaptogen like properties like magnolia bark and reishi mushroom. And then we go a little bit more into the nervines and nervines, however you want to say that. And those to me are like the unsung heroes of herbal medicine, especially around sleep and the nervous system and stress. And so the ones that aren't too sedating, but also really nourish and support the nervous system often have a gentle calming effect. Some of them like say Lemon balm are still uplifting and totally fine to take during the daytime, whereas others might be a little bit more relaxing and depending upon the person may be more appropriate at night. And then gradually transitioning into the more overt sort of sedating, relaxing, strongly relaxing herbs.

And then we cover quite a few recipes, some recipes that were in the prior books, but also some new recipes. We've got some new plants that we're profiling that weren't in the other books or that get more of a mention.

All of the information that was in the prior books has been rewritten, adapted, expanded for this particular topic. And then we've added, more content as well. So that's basically what we have in the book.

That sounds wonderful. So I want to ask you about some of your favorites to talk a little bit more about them.

Addressing Misconceptions and Cultural Perspectives on Herbal Sleep Aids

But before we do, can you talk a little bit about misconceptions that people might have in terms of using herbs for sleep? What are some of the expectations that you think many people would have?

Yeah, I think there are a couple of different misconceptions. One I think is that herbs are dangerous and as herbs go, especially compared to pharmaceuticals, they have generally a much, much better track record in terms of safety, lower risk of interactions with medications if somebody is on medications. It's possible for there being to be interactions, and it's possible for there to be negative side effects, but generally speaking, the risks are far lower than they would be for pharmaceuticals. And you know yourself, because you have the background in pharmacy and the background in herbs, there are certainly things to be aware of, and a pro, and sometimes one is appropriate, sometimes there's another more appropriate, but occasionally I'll run into people who are like, Oh I'm afraid of herbs. They seem really dangerous.

I'm like 'not that often'. Usually, the commonly available herbs are pretty safe. You want to always be mindful and know what you're doing, but generally they have a very good safety record. So I'd say that's a biggie. And then another one is that the best thing to go for when you're not sleeping well, when it comes to herbs would be those strong sedatives.

And I'll admit that's been my focus over the years for a long time, but I've really come to appreciate some of those more rebuilding and tonic nervous system herbs as being phenomenally helpful. And they generally have even fewer side effects and herb drug interactions, and can be enjoyed day or night without being too sedating, but still being really supportive at nighttime.

So I think that's a category of herbs that people don't often think about initially when they're thinking about sleep support. They're like, give me the heaviest, knock me out herb. And there's a place for that. But a lot of times those subtler and more tonic herbs can be our biggest allies when it comes to sleep.

For sure. It's funny that when you talk about risk and danger of herbs, I had that conversation with my students yesterday and I actually asked them to raise their hands if they are concerned about taking a Tylenol or Ibuprofen or something like this, if they feel that these are dangerous. And then we were talking, okay, do you feel that a cup of chamomile tea can be dangerous?

And so we had quite a bit of conversation on this. And it's all about your level of comfort. If you have been, using Tylenol or Ibuprofen, you might not recognize that there are actually adverse effects and toxicities. And if you're not familiar with herbal remedies and herbal medications and herbal medicines in general, You might just be a lot more worried and scared of them just because you don't know enough about them. And I am really grateful that you bring up this topic.

And then the other piece, you talk about heavy hitters. is the cultural perspective and the traditions. So I come from former Soviet Union, and I remember my grandmother was always using valerian and when I started studying herbal medicine, I realized that not everyone is using valerian here for sleep. Many people do not. So I wanted to ask you to talk a little bit about that cultural traditions and perspectives and what do you see and what's in the book and what's in your practice in general?

Definitely you'll find that different people resonate with different herbs, often herbs that are part of their cultural lineage. Or, nowadays I'd say it's also what's trendy in the industry or, in the books and things of that nature as well. But traditionally we worked with the plants that grew in our backyards and that were popular in our own cultures.

So valerian is certainly a big one in a lot of different areas. Chamomile is another herb that has a profound history of use, and current use as well across a large area of the world. Certainly throughout Central America and Mexico, in Europe, Chamomile is a key herb, the Middle East. And I believe even in a lot of areas around Asia you'll find Chamomile, any of those sort of more temperate or temperate to warm climates, you'll often find that Chamomile is classic.

So I love that about Chamomile is that it is this herb that you can find almost anywhere in the world at the grocery store. Or as a teabag at the very least. And so many people have a relationship with it, and it's such a phenomenal plant. I was just looking at some studies that some students had pulled up for class the other day and I was like, oh, even more research on how amazing and how well chamomile really does perform in even the clinical trials. But certainly we have a long history that we can refer to as well. So there can be that.

I do think that there are a lot of individual. Variations. So for example, with valerian for a lot of people, valerian is going to be awesome. It is the first herb I ever worked with for sleep. And it was really helpful for me for just getting a better quality sleep, but not everybody responds well to it. Some people find that it keeps them more awake. It is one of the more muscle relaxing herbs. So if somebody had apnea, it might be one that wouldn't agree as much. If you have apnea, you should get the apnea addressed usually. CPAP machines or something like that. Although there are some other lifestyle tricks that might work, but Valerian is not for everybody. Some people feel groggy with it, or it makes them feel like they had a cup of coffee.

Chamomile too. I wish I could enjoy chamomile as a tea, but for me, even though I'm not that allergy prone, drinking a cup of chamomile tea by the time I'm done, it's almost like I've had a, got a cold and I might be wheezing for the next day or so. So Unfortunately, it's not the right plant for me. That's okay. There's another plant to turn to, but certainly we have those cultural traditions and who knows, maybe it's partly our own genetics that are one of the reasons why an herb may resonate with us more or not. I'm just, guessing here, but, that could certainly be one of the factors in which herbs are going to work best or not.

And everybody's an individual. So there can be even those mid range herbs like say motherwort, which is one of my favorite herbs for anxiety type states and for relaxation. And it can be nice in the daytime. It can be nice at night. I have some clients who do really well with it, but they prefer it at night because it makes them too sleepy by day, even though it's not a strongly sedating herb, in my opinion.

And then I have other clients who can take it during the day for stress and blood pressure support and those things. But then if they take it at night, they have a little bit of sleep apnea and it's enough to trigger that sleep apnea. And that to me is a very Day or night appropriate herb, but even in that, when you're talking about those super sensitive folks, which I am, and I also attract a lot of clients and students who are of the hypersensitive type, there might be a variation.

Listening to your body is great. Turning to any herbs that you do have a cultural tradition with is also great. And then just going from there and many herbs, that we can turn to for sleep support grow really well in our gardens or that you can find in various backyard scenarios. And so that may also be a deciding factor for you and which herbs you're going to play with.

For sure. For sure.

Favorite Herbs for Sleep: From Heavy Hitters to Gentle Allies

So you talked a little bit about heavy hitters versus more gentle herbs. Can you go a little bit further into this? What are some of your favorites, maybe heavy hitters, but also the gentle herbs that you can really rebuild your system and do better that way?

One of things we .cover in the book, as well as in the Body Into Balance book, there's like a continuum for the nervous system of herbs that are super stimulating, like caffeine containing plants to the more stimulating adaptogens, to more relaxing adaptogens, to the more nervines, and then gradually to the like gentle sedatives and strong sedatives.

So there's this continuum. It's not just like you're in this category or that category, but then also there's that individual variation as well. So keeping that in mind, that there's individual variation I would say that some of the heavier hitters, the ones that I've turned to first in my history, one would be valerian. I'd say that's one of the most popular sleep herbs. Probably has fallen a little bit more out of favor in more recent years, but overall, when you're looking at herbal formulas for sleep up until recently, almost every herbal formula for sleep probably had valerian in it. And that's a modestly heavy hitter.

It can really help with sleep latency, helping you fall asleep a little bit faster. That's where the research tends to shine the most. If you up the dose, it gets more relaxing. So sometimes a little bit would have a little bit of a response, taking more would be even more relaxing. And it's also a little bit of a muscle relaxer.

So that can sometimes be a good thing or not a good thing, depending upon, if you had a little back pain, having a little bit more valerian to help you sleep might be helpful. If you had sleep apnea, that would be one of the situations where that might not be helpful. So valerian is a classic one. Doesn't agree with everybody, but it is a really nice one.

Passionflower is an herb that I came to really appreciate even more over the years because it seems to be more broadly responsive to people as a stronger, relaxing herb for sleep. There is some really good research on it. It has a long history of use in areas of the world that are warmer because it's an herb that comes from places like Florida. So having it in those warmer climates is more classic. But as it's infiltrated other herbal traditions and colder climates like ours, it does perform really well. And you don't even necessarily need high doses to help just relax the nervous system. It just takes the nervous system down a notch and can be really helpful for a lot of people.

And in many of the studies, Working with passionflower alone or combining it with other herbs, they performed on par with a lot of our benzodiazepine drugs, which are our typical sleep inducing medications, which the meds have lots of risk of addiction and side effects and withdrawal symptoms, whereas the herbs really don't seem to have those problems at all. So that's definitely one of my favorites and it tastes okay.

If you haven't had valerian, valerian it smells like body odor and skunk and dirt and perfume all rolled into one, kind of a funky aroma. Passionflower is pretty mild, so you can easily blend it into teas as well as take it in other formats as like a tincture.

So that's definitely one of my favorites as a moderately heavy hitter. Some other ones that would also be in the sort of heavier hitter category would be hops, which is a sort of sedative hypnotic. It has all sorts of other cool benefits, like it's anti-inflammatory. It's a little bit of a phytoestrogen, it's a digestive bitter and a blood sugar lowering herb.

Hops is related to cannabis and it doesn't have the cannabinoids like cannabis, but it does have a lot of the terpenes and other constituents, and so it's very biochemically like dynamic. And that could make it more or less appropriate, but when it comes to relaxation, it is pretty sleep inducing, that more hypnotic sedative response, which for some people is good, but in other people, they might feel like it's like too much of a downer. Like they feel a little bit more depressed during the day if they have a tendency towards that. Again, it really depends on the person, but I consider that to be a heavier hitter.

One of the funny stories I have about hops is a client years ago who was working with me, but also, popping into natural food stores and, getting herbs from a couple different places. And so at check in, she said,, I'm working with Hops, because one of the people at the natural food store suggested it for my pain. What do you think about that? And I was like hops is great, but it's also a sedative. So that's not always as appropriate. That's what it is I've been so tired all the time, so here she is taking this sedating herb all day long, and it was just really making her feel more sluggish and sleepy. Maybe it helped her pain, but for her it would have been more appropriate to take at bedtime because it is sedating.

So that's why it's always good to know the bigger picture of what an herb does and all of its different facets before you start taking it, so that you can make You know, wise choices about when is the best time to take it and if it's the right herb for you.

for sure.

There are plenty of others, but I'd say those are some of the biggies. When it comes to mid range, things that are a little bit more sedating, but not as heavier hitter, would be chamomile. And chamomile is still pretty strong. Chamomile still, in studies often performs similarly to those benzodiazepine drugs, but most people don't find it too sedating.

Again, everybody's a little different. Another fun story on that one is when I was working in a natural food store, we had this tall strapping young man who came back to return a box of chamomile tea. And tea bag chamomiles is it weak compared to if you have the loose herb, especially if it's been freshly harvested from your garden or farm. That's the best, most potent chamomile.

Tea bags, they're not that strong usually. And so he was returning it because he made one cup of tea and he had a hard time waking up for a couple days.

Oh, wow.

And of course, we did the process of return. My suspicion is he had been probably going. And when he finally, knocked his nervous system down enough to be able to sleep, his body was probably saying, Oh my goodness, I have a little bit of catching up to do. So I suspect that if he had given his body a chance to recuperate from going. He may have normalized with it, but that's just a guess. I don't know. He wasn't a client.

Everybody's a little bit different, but Chamomile is a nice mid range one that still can be pretty profound, especially if you make a stronger cup of tea or use it in a stronger format. Lavender's, mid range to stronger.

Skullcap can vary quite widely depending upon the person and the preparation. So for me, I can only take skullcap by night to help with my sleep, but other folks can take skullcap in the daytime to help with just being in a calmer, less overstimulated space.

Some of the ones that I would consider that are a little bit more gentle and tend to be pretty helpful during the day Milky Oats as a long term nervous system tonic. You don't really notice a lot from Milky Oats right away, but working with it on a regular basis, people often just feel like they're in a better place. It's like it, it closes some of the gaps in the system. So people feel a little bit more balanced.

Lemon balm is a favorite. I'm talking lots about Lemon balm with different people, so I already have lots of things out there in the ethers for free about Lemon balm, but Lemon balm is one of my favorite herbs for a gentle Nervine that can be great during the daytime and at night.

Motherwort typically is one that's a little bit more even keeled. I've become really fond of linden as a tea, it's also a little bit mucilaginous. It's also a little bit of a cardiovascular tonic, but it's just a gentle sleep herb that tastes so yummy as a tea. So that's, a subtle but beautiful one.

So those are a few examples of some of my favorite herbs.

Those absolutely great. Thank you.

Quick Break

This is just a quick reminder for you that Maria and Storey Publishing kindly offered her wonderful book, "Herbal remedies for sleep" as a raffle prize for this episode of Plant Love Radio. Please head over to https://plantloveradio.substack.com and share some of your favorite moments from our conversation today. In addition, paid subscribers will receive access to Maria's three favorite recipes for ashwagandha golden milk, herbal sleep pillow, and ashwagandha chai. Thank you so much for your continued support of Plant Love Radio.

And now back to our conversation.

Back to Our Episode

I wanted to follow up this with a couple of questions.

Tea vs. Tincture: Choosing the Right Herbal Format for Sleep

So you talked earlier about alcohol, not always working for people, especially someone who is a little bit older, maybe Perimenopausal. When do you recommend using something as a tea like a dried herb versus a teabag versus tinctures versus something else? And also just thinking about we're drinking tea before night time, is that a really good idea?

Yeah, that is a great distinction and question. So thanks for bringing that up. Because there are pros and cons of the different formats, depending upon your individual situation, the time of day, and also the herb. Teas can be nice because the actual act of drinking a cup of tea is a very nice, relaxing, soothing ritual, regardless of what's in it.

Exploring Herbal Tea Remedies for Sleep

And so there are definitely pros and some herbs are Pretty tasty as a tea, and also are still relatively effective as a dried herb, which is usually if we're making a tea, we're going to be working with a dry herb. However, drinking tea, as you mentioned, can make you have to pee, and that is sometimes one of the triggers for people in the middle of the night, is that they are waking up to pee. And a little bit of that is not unusual and not considered abnormal. But if it's really disrupting sleep, that's not ideal.

So you could turn to a different format like pills or tinctures or some other liquid extract that's smaller extract. Or you could, if you are going to do tea, what I like to do is brew it small and strong. So I have a basic sleep tea that I love that's out there in the ethers. There's even a free video on how to make it.

And it's basically equal parts skullcap, passion flower, Lemon balm, and spearmint. And you can adjust based off of what you want, passion flowers, the heavier hitter in that blend, and spearmint, and more for flavor. And then I usually add a little honey, because it does taste better, and I think that having a little honey before bed and then brushing your teeth afterwards can actually be a little bit soothing for people, just like a small teaspoon.

And so we'll just use the little teacups maybe Four ounces, five ounces of a finished tea, but using like a whole heaping teaspoon or two of the dry herb blend. So it ends up pretty strong, but you're not getting a ton of liquid before bed. For some people that still might be too much.

The Benefits of Alcohol Extracts for Sleep

So I love alcohol extracts as a potential first sleep remedy because they absorb very quickly into the bloodstream. Anything that's liquid is usually going to absorb quickly into the bloodstream, but alcohol extracts tend to be even a little bit faster.

So maybe within five to 15 minutes, they're going to start to have some activity, sometimes even almost right away. And You can capture the fresh properties of plants. So valerian is an herb that I tend to prefer as a fresh plant, as a fresh root. And so if I make a alcohol extract with the fresh root, I retain a lot of those fresh constituents.

Same thing with skullcap. Now they still have benefits as dry herb. So some people do like working with them as dry herb, but I like, Lemon balm, skullcap, Valerian. I tend to like them even a little bit better in their fresh form. And so if I'm making tea with dried herbs, I'm not getting some of those constituents.

So that's another perk of the tincture is that you might get a wider array of constituents. It absorbs faster. It's very convenient. You can just keep the bottle by your bedside with maybe a little bit of water. So you can dilute it as you're taking it. You don't need a lot, just like we're talking like a half ounce or so of water, just so it's not high proof alcohol going on to the sensitive membranes in your mouth.

And let's see, what else can we say about tinctures? So they were quick work quickly. You can take them in the middle of the night if you need them. It's alcohol, but the amount of alcohol is pretty small. So while somebody who maybe had a negative history with alcohol might find tinctures are not agreeable for them when it comes to things like that a glass of alcohol before bed might disrupt sleep, the little bit that you're getting in a tincture is usually not an issue.

Choosing Between Tinctures, Glycerites, and Pills

If you have, reflux or gastritis or something like that, you may prefer a glycerite or something a little gentler than alcohol that won't be so hard on the membranes of the gastric lining.

So there are a lot of different perks to the tinctures and they might taste bad, but you get them over quickly. So usually for me personally, I like making teas with things that taste good and I find that my clients are going to be more compliant and enjoy the experience.

And there are quite a few teas that don't really taste so hot when it comes to herbs. Hops, valerian, they're some relatively nasty tasting and smelling herbs that most people wouldn't enjoy taking as a tea. You can, they would still have medicinal benefit as a tea. And I know some people who because they associate those herbs with a good quality night's sleep, love them.

When I worked in the natural food store, there'd be a few people who would like, take that like jar or bag of valerian and open it up and inhale it and be like, I just love, because they associate it with a good night's sleep, but most people, if they smell it and taste it, would be like, Oh my gosh.

I remember taking valerian with somebody who who was my partner at the time. And as I took it, I like turned to bed and he's Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry. I should have showered. I smell really bad. And I was like, Oh no, that's not you. That's me. I just took valerian. So they can have a pretty strong smell or taste. So those could be another reason why you choose one over another.

Glycerites are nice because they're sweet, they're alcohol free, you could make them with fresh or dry plant. The biggest two downsides to the Glycerites in my mind are one, they're not as concentrated. They're not as potent as an alcohol extract or even a tea would likely be. And then also they, if you're working with fresh herb in particular, the moisture content can make them go bad and funky faster. So those are the big downsides of that.

And there are other pills. Pills are great. There are a couple of companies out there that make really nice extracts in pill form. So if somebody Preferred pill for convenience or because they wanted to avoid alcohol. I might refer them to one of those commercial blends.

Navigating the Herbal Product Market

And that's my next question, how do you recommend people to navigate this vast array of herbal products available? So of course, when you're making your own or you're growing your own it's great because you know where they're coming from. But then looking at the market and looking on the shelves of different health stores, how do you approach that?

Yeah, it can be tricky to navigate and I'm spoiled because most of what I work with are things that I've grown and made myself or I've purchased them from really great quality herbalists or herb farms and so that's the ideal in many situations if you have the capacity to do that, it's really great and like I said, many of our Sleep herbs are really easy to grow often in abundance, and so that can be a boon.

But if you're just somebody who's, new or you don't have time to make things and you just want to go to the store and buy things, I would say first off, seeking out good quality suppliers. So oftentimes you're going to get better quality products if you go to a natural food store, a co op I will say that some of the big chains for natural foods where you would also be buying groceries.

I don't know if I should be mentioning brands or not. It's up to you. But usually they have pretty good quality supplements. It's okay to name brands. All right. I would say that generally speaking, any of the co ops, that there's a whole like family of co ops out there, they're usually good whole foods market.

Generally they carry really good products. And then you may find have those great natural food stores that have been in your area. So for example, near me, we have a market natural foods and granite state natural foods that. Really, they've been in business for a long time and they really pay attention to really excellent quality.

So usually you're gonna go into a store that already has better quality. A lot of the ones that you'll find in the strip mall, it depends, there can be a good store in a strip mall, but some of the more traditional strip mall and mall Supplement stores are less desirable. The mass market companies that aren't really focused on health, but just happen to have supplements and herbs shoved into a corner, those usually aren't as good of quality places to get your herbs.

They might still work, but they're just not as. typically as high quality. So where you purchase your herbs from will matter because they'll be vetting the better quality and the more effective companies. Generally speaking, there are some brands that I tend to like if you're going for a big company.

So I love Gaia. I think their quality control and their potency is phenomenal. They do both liquid extracts and pills. And I feel like for herbs, they don't have as big of a selection as I would want, but What they have is generally going to be phenomenal quality, and that was the company I started out with, and I have noticed a difference between them and other companies and their potency, and I know that their identity and quality controls are stellar.

Did you have something you wanted to add to right, and even chewables, so like I was talking to someone about Passion Flower and Ashwagandha and their chewables and I was surprised to see I had a student that did a project on comparing different chewable products like gummies with Gaia herbs and a few other ones, so it was very interesting for me to see what they actually carried.

Yeah.

Oh, cool. Yeah. Gummies are like a whole new territory in the herbal industry. And I actually do, I take their elderberry gummies and I do those. I also make my own elderberry syrup, but I do find the gummies convenient, especially when I'm traveling and you can make your own too, but I just haven't delved into that yet.

And they, I have noticed that they have more and more gummies and more and more powders. Like these are just areas that are becoming more and more popular in the industry. So if it's an herb that you can fit a good dose into a small amount, those would be good ones. to do as gummies, which many of the sleep herbs fall into that category.

So it's cool to see that you're going to be getting sugar and other things at the same time. And a lot of times you'll find even some of the cannabis products are very popular as gummies, and sometimes they'll integrate sleep supplements or sleep herbs in with their formulas. Sometimes those cannabis companies don't really know the herbs that well, and the dose they give you might not be that sufficient.

So yeah, there are lots of options. So Gaia is one I would say that generally speaking, Oregon's Wild Harvest is a decent company, Herb Farm is a decent company Herbalist and Alchemist tends to be a pretty stellar company and their quality, and so there can be many many different brands.

For farms I really love Oshawa Farm and Foster Farm Botanicals, Zack Woods Herb Farms. Those are really wonderful places to get herbs that have been cultivated organically and dried really carefully. It'll cost more, but the quality is vastly better than what you might find in the bigger bulk brands. I would say for the day to day things, Mountain Rose is really good, but a lot of our classic sleep herbs like Passionflower and Lemon balm and Holy Basil, herbs that we might turn to for relaxation and for sleep, that those are very delicate.

And so if you can get them from your own garden or from directly from a farm, you'll often find that the quality is, and the potency are vastly better. Even though Mountain Rose has great quality herbs, I tend to turn to them more for roots and spices and things that are a little less delicate

That's a great advice. That's really great to hear.

Incorporating Holistic Approaches to Sleep

I want to bring you back to something you said earlier, you mentioned strategies and overall protocols where you are thinking about herbal medicines and specific herbs, but you're also having tips and tricks, things that you're incorporating them in. Can you talk a little bit more about this, please?

for sure. And I would say that's pretty common in folks, I would hope in a lot of herbalists as well as holistically minded professionals. Usually we're not just giving you the pill or the tincture or the tea. There's usually a remedy of some sort involved, but we'll be looking at other things as well.

There might be some tips on how you're eating, what you're drinking depending upon your situation. So diet is often something we'll explore and lifestyle tips like deep breathing, meditation, deep breathing. Those can be such phenomenal tools. I hate using the word tool for any of these things because that sounds so utilitarian and really I think all of these things are so much more than that, but just doing a simple deep breathing exercise of any sort really, but the 4 7 8 breath is a really nice one that you can find videos out there for.

It only takes a couple minutes. And especially if you're working with that regularly and then as needed can be a really great way to shift your body out of stress mode into a more relaxed nervous system mode. And it doesn't cost anything. It barely takes any time and it can be really profound. The dietary piece, not eating things too heavy at night and also just watching so that things are, glucose balanced. And even keeping an eye for stimulants. A lot of people might not realize that, say that chocolate or that afternoon coffee or whatever it may be, even a multivitamin could be something that is stimulating enough that might be keeping you awake at night. Sometimes it's only if you're taking it later in the day, sometimes it's no matter what time of day, some people might be sensitive to that.

So there are usually a lot of those tips and tricks. And I'm curious too, do you have any additions that you found really helpful in your own life? Whether it's an herb or a lifestyle tip.

Yeah, a lot of things that you have mentioned. One that I have tried for a little while that have been working is golden milk or something similar that might have additional ingredients that are more calming and relaxing. Or reishi mushroom incorporated in something similar. Maybe a combination of spices and reishi that feels really good.

But my struggle has to do with when do you start preparing for nighttime? And I think for our society is so fast paced these days that Often becomes a problem, whether you are thinking about something that happened this day or something that is going to be happening in the future. And I know that passionflower is really an amazing plan for someone that has this circular thinking and really useful for that.

The Future of Herbal Remedies in Mainstream Healthcare

How do you think the future of herbal medicine or herbal remedies for sleep will change or will evolve in mainstream healthcare practices? What do you hope for, at least?

I certainly would hope for conventional practitioners to start to recognize that herbs can play a valuable role. And also just remembering that there's a whole world of just holistic supports. So when somebody comes in and they're saying I'm having trouble sleeping, there's so much to explore and unpack beyond just like Here's this, potentially addictive with lots of negative side effects benzodiazepine drug that will put you to sleep, or at least you'll feel like you're asleep, but, isn't really looking at that bigger picture.

So I would hope that practitioners would take the time to do that bigger picture to figure out that better picture. Why somebody's not sleeping and seeing if they can address that directly, which may or may not involve any kind of drug or herb and could have profound benefits, but also to recognize that herbs have a lot of potential and a lot of safety for folks who do need or want that little extra step. Sometimes I think of herbs as training wheels to help our body figure out how to work in balance.

The body is amazing. really would like to be in balance, but we tend to get out of balance. And so herbs can be really wonderful allies to help us support, transitioning from a less healthy state to a more healthy state. And that definitely can be true for herbs or, whether we're working with them long term or just as needed.

And so herbs would be a really wonderful step. Before somebody turned to a drug and a lot of people would notice benefits from herbs with fewer side effects and better long term health versus some of the downstream negative effects. And many of the studies, there's not a ton of research on herbs for sleep, but there's a fair amount.

And especially when it comes to herbs like passionflower and chamomile. The research is pretty good that those herbs are often working as well as the pharmaceuticals, with fewer side effects. So I would love to see the conventional medicine world recognizing that a bit more. And the herbs are just one piece of a potential puzzle, but they are really helpful allies that we as human beings have coexisted with for as long as we've been living as a species, we've worked with medicinal herbs. And and so remembering that these can be our allies is great.

It's very important what you said turning to these before stronger and more addictive treatments. And I have a family member they started taking a much more addictive therapy then they stopped and now they cannot sleep by themselves. So everything just becomes much more difficult. In a lot of situations we end up with taking a pill because they are widely accessible without taking something milder, but effective enough to help you heal better and bring your body to balance as something that you always teach.

Yeah, and I do, I should state for the record, I know you know this and you may even have a disclaimer somewhere in your podcast, that I'm not telling people to just go off of medications. They should always work with their doctors and sometimes people can successfully work with herbs and the bigger picture to wean off of medications and still sleep well.

I've had quite a few clients and students have good luck with that with different herbs that have become their allies, but you should always be working with your doctor. You shouldn't just stop herbs usually, stop drugs, cold turkey, and and seek guidance, whether it's from, you should always seek your doctor's guidance, but feel free to seek the guidance of, say, a naturopathic doctor or an herbalist to support you if you feel like you need that.

And there are some cases where some of our sleep herbs may not be a great Especially something that's sedative alongside sedating drugs could have an additive effect. So sometimes that's okay, sometimes that's not okay, but just keeping in mind that I'm not telling, and I know you're not either, to just go off meds, but they can, the herbs can sometimes be helpful in that weaning process.

And then also if we can, as you were saying, turn to herbs first, we would find many people wouldn't need to take that next step.

A hundred percent. So I think it's super important to recognize that when your healthcare professionals work together, so maybe someone who is more conventional healthcare provider with someone that you're seeing like an herbalist and naturopathic physician, and they are able to teach and educate each other, but also really take into consideration all the intricacies. I think that's incredibly important. Thank you for bringing this

And also just the additive thing of listening to your body. So if you're going to work with an herb for the first time, do your research, get to know it, see if you've connected with the plant any kind of way. Some people really are very into plant spirit connections and feel that very deeply as well.

But then also, when you start to take it, take just a little bit, see how you feel with it, then, slowly work up to a little bit more, listen to your body, because people are different, some people, Reishi mushroom is phenomenal to support their sleep, and then other people might actually get overstimulated by Reishi mushroom. What you really want to ultimately find out is what's true for your body.

And that might take a little bit of experimentation if you're self treating. And even if you're not if you're working with a practitioner, listening to your body is going to be the ultimate thing that tells you what does or doesn't work in your body, which I know you know, but I feel like I should throw it out there as well.

I love to research because I, I'm a journalist in my past life and I like to look things up and I think that's an important part of the process. But remembering to go easy and stay in tune with your body and see how it actually feels for you is going to be the ultimate.

you find that these days that listening to your body doesn't come as easily as it probably has before?

I don't know if it's a now thing versus a then thing, but I definitely will say that there are a lot of folks who I'm surprised that they don't know how to listen to their body. I have many clients who are very in tune. I think I also attract a relatively proactive group of clients these days.

But there are others who I will say, a check in so how's it going? And they're like, I don't know, I don't really know how to notice if I feel better or not. So maybe it's because the herbs weren't doing enough. But it also can be that somebody's just simply not paying attention.

So I think if you are one of those people who doesn't know how to listen to your body, or you often don't, then just giving yourself like check in breaks every now and then. It's like, all right, let me pause. Let me like tune in to how things are feeling in my system. But sometimes people shut off those responses, because of our fast paced culture, or maybe they've been through trauma, or for some other reason, they're disconnected. And I think that through intentional checking in and starting to pay attention, we can rebuild that connection to be able to listen to our bodies.

Really great message. Thank you.

Final Thoughts and Educational Opportunities

Maria, as we are coming to an end, I want to ask you a couple of questions. So the first one will be, tell us when the book is coming out, how do we find it? Or maybe for someone who is listening later where would they be able to find the book? Tell us how someone can connect with you and any of your educational opportunities.

And then my last question will be as usual. Any words of wisdom that you can leave us with related to sleep or herbal remedies for sleep or anything related to that?

Okay first off, the book is releasing in April, you can order it to have it delivered. And if folks want to order books signed by me, and which also supports my work the best, you can order it through my website, wintergreenbotanicals. com. You can also get the book anywhere where books are sold, and sometimes it is less expensive. I can't compete with some of those prices, so however you get it, if you want the book, it's totally cool.

You can order it from your local bookseller as well and you might even be able to request it at your local library. I know that libraries have been pretty awesome places to get my books in the past for people who just like libraries for a variety of reasons. So that's a little bit about the book.

I do have all sorts of educational programs. So my core program, the Home Herbalist Series is the most popular, and that's the introductory. And I will be teaching that via live stream in summer on a weeknight and also a few in person spots for that. And it's also available on demand at any time.

I have a Fall Beyond the Home Herbalist Series, which is Fans with additional body systems and remedies. And then I'm very excited that in 2024, I will be launching my first ever seasonal energetics series and Tisha Love and Jiling Lin will be coming in to join me for that.

They're gonna be teaching about Ayurveda energetics as well as Chinese and Asian five element theories, and they're phenomenal teachers. I'm so honored and excited to have them. And I'll be talking about Western energetics, which is like hot, cold, dry, damp, and the seasons and all of that, and how that intersects with our health as well as materia medica and just a lot of different things all related together, which will be great for helping people understand how to work with herbs and also to live more in harmony with the seasons and in their own bodies. And it's a module of my advanced series. And so it leads people into deeper work.

So those are the big things that are going on. Wintergreenbotanicals. com is the main place to find out all the different odds and ends that I'm up to. I've got a really nice mailing list, approximately monthly with recipes, tips, and tricks, as well as the latest updates. And then I am on social media.

And I'm sure you'll have links in the show notes and all that for that. But I am on Facebook and Instagram and YouTube and a few other odds and ends, but I'd say Instagram and Facebook are the main ways to catch me on social.

Wonderful. Thank you. And any words of wisdom that you want to leave us with?

So I'd say my basic word of wisdom is It's one that I've said before, so apologies if folks have heard it, but I think it's so important. And that is that you don't need to know about every herb out there. You just want to know the herb that you're taking and you can start slow with single plants and form your relationship with single plants and find the ones that are your allies.

For me, Lemon balm is a huge ally to me. But it might be a different plant for you. It might be holy basil. It might be skullcap. It might be hops, but find an herb that seems to be calling to you and then get to know it. Not just researching it, but trying it, growing it, going to a garden where it's already existing, having a chance to interact with it forms such a deep connection.

And then as we get to know our plant allies. It's not just our health from like that phytochemistry, but we have such a deeper connection to the world around us and to the plants that really enriches our lives and can be life changing for the better. So it can start with just one little plant like it did with me and turn into this very deep and beautiful relationship that you have with the world around you.

this is so wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us and thank you for your wisdom.

Awesome. And thank you for all your work and thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

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