On the intersection of herbal science and art with Zoë Gardner

On the intersection between plant science and art with Zoe Gardner
Zoe: Science trains us to objectify the things that we're working with. And so when we can take time to appreciate the beauty, and develop a closer connection, I think that there's a lot of value in that. And it brings us back to the reason to study plants , back to that initial inspiration, hopefully.
Lana: You're listening to plant love radio episode number 65.
Hello Friends. I hope you're having a great week. As a scientist, I'm always fascinated to learn how art and literature help other colleagues to become more inspired and more creative. Today's episode is for someone who wants to appreciate how two sides of our brain can not only coexist, but truly help each other to blossom.
My today's guest is Zoe Gardner. Zoe is a botanist, potter and self-proclaimed herb herd. She has over 20 years of experience working with medicinal plants. Zoe is a specialist in the quality and safety of medicinal plants. She is the author of the second edition of the American Herbal Product Association Botanical Safety Book. This reference for safety has over 500 medicinal plants listed in it.
Zoe earned her PhD in plant science from the University of Massachusetts in Amherst, and she helped to create the medicinal plant program there. She went on to oversee product development and product safety at the Traditional Medicinals.
Zoe now splits her time between working as a regulatory consultant to herbal companies and creating beautiful botanical pottery.
Today I will be raffling off one of Zoe's amazing creations, but I want to ask you for your help. Ratings and reviews shared on apple podcasts by listeners allow to increase the visibility of the show. They help other people interested in herbal medicine to find us.
If you've been listening to Plant Love Radio and enjoyed this show, could you please post your rating and review and send me a screenshot of your post? I will include your name in the raffle of Zoe's beautiful Sugar Maple small pitcher. You should check out the picture in the show notes. I know you'll want to get into this raffle.
For all the resources mentioned in today's episode, please head over to the show notes at https://plantloveradio.com/65. Enjoy!
Lana: Good morning. How are you doing?
Zoe: Good morning, Lana. Doing really well. Nice to be here with you. Thank you.
Lana: I'm really excited to welcome you to the show. I remember meeting you about 10 to 12 years ago when you were still at UMass working with professor Lyle Craker and then I heard you were on the West coast. We reconnected about a month ago .
I want to ask you to talk a little bit about your developmental years. You started your journey in Ohio , you traveled, continued with your studies here at the University of Massachusetts. Do you remember when you decided to study agriculture and why did you eventually transition, and focused on medicinal plants?
Zoe's early years with medicinal plants
Zoe: Yeah. I would say that plants have been with me since I was a little kid. I was always interested in nature, always hanging out in the woods behind the house and had a little Fort where I would gather plants and, you know, put them in a little clam shell or something to pretend to make meals for I don't know who but somebody. So I just followed the interest in nature along and got field guides as I was growing up. So learned the birds in our area, then learn the trees and the other plants in our area. And I remember finding my first book on medicinal plants after I had gotten to know the plants a little bit.
I understood that plants could be edible. That made sense to me, but the idea that they could be medicinal, it just blew my mind and it took several years to really understand that. But it was so fascinating that I couldn't not follow it. In high school, I think I found a couple of herbal books that were interesting.
So I kind of tinkered with the knowledge, but I was always a little too nervous to use any herbs because we didn't have any family traditions. So like many Americans, it was a very foreign feeling thing. A very unusual, maybe unsafe thing, at least unknown. And then when I got into college, I did a lot of my special projects, reports and things like that on plants that were medicinal and explored it a little bit more through that, went to some herb conferences and just followed it along there.
Lana: So you were already studying agriculture and medicinal plants, or this was the undergraduate training?
Zoe: Undergrad. So undergrad, it was environmental studies. I'd heard about ethnobotany along the way, so that connection of people and plants was always fascinating to me. I didn't do a formal study with any teachers or any herb school like a lot of folks do on their path to herbalism, but I had enough books to kind of give a sense of how to make a tincture.
And I knew my plants well from having studied field guides. I remember the formative experience of making my first tincture. So I went out to a wild place that had been a favorite since I was a little kid. And I knew that there is yarrow growing there, and I knew that yarrow was used medicinally.
So you remember going out to the rolling Hills of this preserve and picking a little bit of yarrow. Kind of watching over my back, wondering if I was going to get in trouble for picking a plant in the place. I think it was Rosemary Gladstar talking about the feeling that some of us get when we're picking plants that the police might come in and stop us or something like that, but really nobody cares.
So I collected the yarrow, I brought it home. I got some vodka. I put it in a tincture. And I never used it because I was too nervous. I didn't have guidance. I didn't know if I had done it right. I didn't know if maybe it was poisonous. So I think it's a lot of what we all feel as we get into herbalism are these herbs safe, you know, they're in different forms and I'm used to using them.
So, began the past and things got a lot more comfortable from there.
Lana: I love your story. And one of the reasons you were saying, 'was it poisonous?' Before I pressed the record button, I was telling you my own story and how I was wondering early on, are these things safe to consume? I studied them from books, but I really didn't have any personal experience.
So of all the people that I interview on the show, they all love plans and most work was medicinal or edible ones. Over time you mentioned that you began spending a lot more time exploring the concepts of safety. Could you share with us a couple of your most memorable projects and maybe biggest lessons that you learned?
Zoe's memorable projects and lessons learned
Zoe: Yeah, sure thing. So it was research editor for the Botanical Safety Handbook from the second edition, from the American Herbal Products Association. And it was a project that took about four years. So it was going through all the traditional and scientific literature on 500 different medicinal plants. So I learned a lot and the most fascinating part of the process was to find out where all the safety rumors came from and tease apart what was, and wasn't true.
So, Comfrey for example we always hear about liver toxicity and the dangers of comfrey, and looking where that came from, in terms of some chemistry with the pyrrhalizidine alkaloids in there, and an understanding of the different alkaloids. And then a key series of, I think it was comfrey with pepsin or something like that. It was a commercial product where most of the case reports came up. So teasing that apart. There was a fun one with orange peel. So bitter orange peel has been under scrutiny quite a bit over the years in part, because of the folks concentrating synephrine, I believe, out of the peel.
So there were some early records of orange peel and bitter orange peel causing deaths. And so that's what had gotten pushed forward in the literature. And then when we went back through, it was something that had come from like the 1910 edition of the U S dispensatory. So an official drug information book at the time had gotten copied, pulled into a Chinese language book first edition, then second edition then translated back into English.
The dispensatory had talked about a kid who ate a whole orange peel and died. So obviously some additional details to be filled in there to understand, but the fact that bitter orange peel was deadly was copied through all of these texts. So there's so much information that just gets carried along and often misinterpreted along the way. So that was fascinating too, to just see how that happens in the world of herbal medicine.
Lana: I remember taking a class on safety and we were looking at lobelia and once again, same idea, where as you call them safety rumors, where do they come from? We were exploring Samuel Thompson, who was a herbalist in 18 hundreds. And he didn't have the easiest personality based in my understanding. And so he didn't make friends very easily. And so he was sued quite a bit. As a result, I remember learning that lobelia got a lot of its reputation because of these lawsuits. I am absolutely fascinated by how history actually affects our understanding and our use of certain plants. So thank you. Thank you so much for that.
Zoe: Sure.
Lana: As we're talking about some of this misinformation that is available, i would love you to share with our listeners how to understand information as they explore it on medicinal plants and herbs. How do you teach people to think critically when they look at herbal medicine? And if you have any examples, that would be wonderful.
How to think about herbal safety information
Zoe: Yeah. I'll just focus on the safety side of things in terms of that question. Because I do see the information getting misinterpreted so often. People getting nervous about the transition. We were talking before we started about chamomile in general. So nobody worries about chamomile tea, but then as soon as chamomile goes into a capsule, it looks like medicine and people get nervous about dosing and things like that.
So, my first piece of advice is keep your head screwed on. Don't get too nervous about things because we're cautious about the category of medicine because we're used to strong drugs and it's really appropriate dosing with drugs is critical. But with a lot of herbs, there's a wider range of safe dosing. So for example, turmeric is super popular right now. And, I don't know if people worry about one versus two teaspoons going into their curry recipe or one versus two tablespoons. That seems so familiar. It's a spice in our spice cabinet, but then again, as soon as that goes into a capsule, people get nervous.
So I was talking to the dental hygienist the other day. She was super interested in herbs, but turmeric was her example of how much do you take and how do you know it's safe and all those things forgetting that it's something that we use in food every day. So, I think remembering that the many of the herbs have a traditional use in food.
And so, using that context to understand probably a wider range of safety in terms of dosing. We as humans tends not to include dangerous herbs in our food supply. So, that's a bad choice for us.
Lana: Right, but do you feel that people are more comfortable with spices? Just because when they consume them, if something is too strong, too potent or doesn't taste right you just wouldn't take it. But capsules and I don't know necessarily tinctures, but capsules can be a little bit more misleading to your body - you can almost smuggle a little too much in them. What are your thoughts on this?
Zoe: if it's not about familiarity of dosage forms before so I worked for awhile for Traditional Medicinals and we often talked about tea as the most approachable form because it's something that's very familiar to us. Whereas capsules, people get more nervous. That's an interesting idea about sneaking things into the body.
Herbal Safety Resources
Lana: All right. Great. Thank you. As you explored a variety of different resources over the years related to safety, do you have some that you really go to first, some of the solid resources, including your book?
Zoe: Yeah. Right. So my book has a great selection of Western herbs and then also some Ayurvedic and TCM herbs. So, depending on what folks are using, that can be a really helpful resource. Simon Mills and Kerry Bone have an excellent book, The Essential Guide to Herbal Safety.
so I've used their book a lot and like that one. And then I use a lot of the English language texts that summarize other information. So, anybody who's been to acupuncture school and studied herbs at all knows Dan Bensky and companies, Materia Medica of Chinese Herbs. I like Sebastian Pole's book on Ayurvedic herbs quite a lot.
There's good safety information there as well. So. those are some of the books they use on a regular basis, in regards to safety.
Lana: Zoe, thank you so much. This is very helpful. I'll make sure that I include links to these books in the show notes. So thank you.
You mentioned couple of minutes ago that you worked for Traditional Medicinals - you spent there about eight years. You were able to apply your technical training to your work there. What were some of the most interesting projects or personal discoveries that you made while working for traditional medicinals?
Working for Traditional Medicinals
Zoe: Yeah, one of the most interesting things happen during the interview there. So the offices in the manufacturing facility are all onsite. Before we got to sit down for a formal interview, we took a facility tour and I remember walking into the warehouse for the very first time.
I was coming from University of Massachusetts academic background. We had thought a lot about herbs, kind of done a lot of theoretical work, and some basic information. And then I looked in the warehouse and it was four stories of racks, continuing finished tea going down, you know, I forget the length of it, but as far as you could see, and then there was the area where the herbs came in and, you know, I was used to seeing little jars on a shelf and all of a sudden it was these bags that were four feet by four feet by four feet filled with cut herbs.
And that was the first time that I really realized the scale of the herbal industry and what was necessary to meet the demand of people having herbal tea or other things. So, that was mind blowing.
And one of my favorite things, that I got to do with the tea company, it was go on some site visits to the places where the herbs come from.
So got to go to The Appalachian mountains of the U S and meet some of the collectors who collect the Slippery Elm bark for the Throat Coat tea. So they're folks who go and do sustainable harvesting of the Slippery Elm. And, you know, they've lived pretty much their whole lives in the woods and they know the woods incredibly well.
So, it was beautiful to get to hang out with them for a little bit. And then over to Bosnia, where the company got some Elder flowers, Raspberry leaf, and a few other herbs that were wild collected in the hillsides there. So again, to get to meet the people who knew the plants really well, and whose livelihood depended on the income from collecting plants and from sustainably doing that so that the plants were there in the future. So those were some of my favorites experiences from the company.
Lana: That's beautiful. You mentioned to me earlier about, this project, tea in a box, herbal medicine in a box. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Zoe: Yeah. Herbal medicine inside of a box. So the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act or DSHEA is the regulation that controls the sale of herbs in the U S. And so a lot of people like to say that herbs are not regulated, so that's not true. Different regulations than drugs, but we thought the regulations quite hard.
And so, this idea of herbalism in a way that we can make claims and make products that are going to be useful to people. So, Herbalism inside of a box is when we're formulating we're not formulating for one individual, but we're formulating for something that will hopefully work for the majority of the population that might drink the tea. So a broadly applicable tea.
We have to make sure that there's enough evidence to support the claim that we want to make, and make sure all the safety information is there or the dosing is correct. All of that kind of thing. And part of the process would be to work with marketing, on what we can say.
So there were a lot of people in the company that had gone to the California School for Herbal studies, gotten a great herbal education there and knew that whatever herbs we were putting in the tea as the main ingredients had so many different uses and why couldn't we talk about it. And why couldn't we say the five different uses of the herb rather than just the one that we were talking about putting on the box.
And a lot of that comes down to what there is scientific and traditional information to substantiate the claim for. And what I find so often especially in American herbalism, is that we get to know kind of one herb for one thing or maybe two or three indications, but it's much more simplified than all of the things that an herbs can be used for. So, it was interesting to work within that.
Lana: Of course. Thank you. I remember one class I attended with Aviva Romm where she was talking about how the most elegant formulations and blends usually have only three or four herbs. And it's because each plant carries so many activities. So the fewer things that you put together, the more elegant this prescribing and formulating is, and it always stayed with me. So thank you. Thank you for reinforcing this.
Zoe's art
As I mentioned earlier we reconnected a little while ago. I was attending herbal conference was drawn to one booth with your artwork - your pottery. I am holding a mug right now that you made. I mentioned to you that I was talking to another herbalist and we both realized that we were holding your creations. Your art truly resonates with plant people. When I purchased your mug, I actually spent quite a bit of time on your Instagram feed to really get the process of creating this pottery. So I want to begin by asking you to tell us a little bit of what do you actually do, how these beautiful creations come about?
Zoe: Yeah, so the pottery that I make is mostly cups and mugs. And, I do imprints of different medicinal leaves on the outside of the pottery. and I usually go for it favorites of herbalists. So nettles is a great standby, motherwort, mugwort, yarrow. So people really love. I do the work on the Potter's wheel and then bring the cups home and kind of carefully watch until they're just the right level of dryness and then put the plants in there.
Lana: What do you mean put plants in there?
Zoe: I collect leaves in my garden or backyard, bring them in and then I pressed them into the clay. So it's basically, it's a print, an impression I pressed them into the clay when it's still soft and I use a little printing ink roller to make sure that they get rolled in as tightly as possible. So, so it's basically doing, a print, an impression of the veins into the clay.
And it's beautiful. I feel like flowers get all the credit for beauty because everything else is green and we don't see it much beauty to be seen, in the leaves and the patterns there.
Lana: The patterns are so gentle. Once everything is dried, you bake the pottery. And so every single mug has this beautiful imprint. And, as a scientist, you also mentioned to me that there is a Latin name usually on the bottom of the mug or cup. Am I correct?
Zoe: Correct? Yep.
Lana: So after working on the technical side of things for so many years, what inspired this transition?
Zoe: I would say that there were two one is that I came upon a when we lost a few acquaintances - neighbor died, a friend's mom passed. And I suddenly realized if there's things that I am really curious to do are kind of on the bucket list then now is the time to do it. So that gave me the confidence and the impetus to kind of kick off.
And the other thing was after working with plants and writing about plants and being in front of a computer, just thinking about plants all day for 14 years, I missed them. So I wanted to reconnect, and it's been a really beautiful way to get, to spend more time with plants, to watch them through the growth cycle, to wait impatiently in the spring time for them to come out from under the snow, all of that.
Lana: That is so beautiful and so magical. I love thinking about all the ways of connecting, like people, concepts and more, and your pottery is clear and great example of this. You are connecting concept the plants themselves to potentially the Latin name. So there are a lot of different senses involved there. Why do you think it is so important for scientists and artists to have this communication? What does each side gain from this?
Zoe: For scientists I think it's important to have the connection. I would say, even for herbalists too, I mean, herbalists tend to be more connected than people who only do science without herbalism, let's say. But the time to reflect on the beauty of the things that we're interacting with and to develop a further connection is to do the work. Science trains us to objectify the things that we're working with. And so when we can take time to appreciate the beauty, and develop a closer connection, I think that there's a lot of value in that and or it brings us back to the reason to study plants , back to that initial inspiration, hopefully.
Lana: I so much agree with you. So creativity comes in many ways - pottery making is one of them. Formulating is another one. before we started our conversation, I was showing you an empty bottle of an elixir that I purchased not long ago. And so creating formula that is well balanced and tasty and beautiful, it's definitely an example of creativity, painting, cooking so much more.
Staying open to your creative side
How does someone stay open to their creative sides?
Zoe: I think a piece of it is turning off the self critical thing. I think that's the first part. So many people love to do art, but they don't feel like they're good at it. And so they let that stop them and not progress. You know, it's been a pleasure to spend more time with the plants because they often send ideas. I was driving down the highway last summer and the whole highway was lined with flowering mugwort. That was kind of waving in the wind. And, I was just admiring that and got a few more ideas of designs that I would want to do on cups. So just paying attention.
Lana: So staying curious and staying open. That's what I'm hearing.
Zoe: Exactly.
Connecting with Zoe
Lana: Thank you. Zoe, as we're coming to an end of this conversation, I wanted to ask you a couple of more questions. you have an Instagram page. How can our listeners learn more about you and from you?
Zoe: so Instagram is where I've been most active online. So that's a great place to find me, on Facebook as well, under Flora Pottery. so those are the best places right in terms of the pottery work
Lana: Okay. And the scientific work is the book and any of the papers that have been published. Right?
Zoe: Exactly. Yup.
Lana: Thank you. And my last question for you - do you have any parting thoughts for our audience? It might be something related to creativity and art. Anything that comes to mind.
Zoe: I would say that there is so much beauty and wonder in the world of plants and so much to explore. So I just encourage people to dive in, to spend time with plants, to get to know them because it's a rich and rewarding and just beautiful field to be in. So I encourage people to enjoy all aspects of it.
Lana: Zoe thank you so much. Thank you for your time. Thank you for the beautiful work that you create. Thank you for being able to bring together the left and the right brain. And bring to the world this amazing beauty and inspiration. Thank you so much.
Zoe: Lana, thank you. It's been a pleasure to talk to you today.
Lana: Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you have enjoyed this conversation with Zoe Gardner. As I have mentioned at the start of this episode, I'm raffling off one of Zoe's amazing creations Sugar maple small pitcher. Please check out the picture of it in the show notes at https://plantloveradio.com/65.
If you've been listening to Plant Love Radio and enjoy the show please post your rating and review on Apple podcasts, take a screenshot of your post and send it to me to lana@lanacamiel.com. And I will include your name in the raffle. Thank you so much for helping the show.
The music you hear in the introduction was written by a neighbor of mine, David Scholl and it's called Something about Cat - my deepest gratitude to Bill Gilligan for this opportunity to play it.
Thanks again for being here today. I really appreciate you. Till the next time, thank you for loving plants and planting love!