Mushrooms and viruses with Dr. Lindsay Chimileski

Mushrooms and Viruses with Dr. Lindsay Chimileski
Lindsay: The idea of Santa and his red and white coat really actually comes from these mushroom shamans who are carrying Amanita muscaria mushrooms throughout Siberia and different areas, and bringing those to people throughout the holidays. And they would travel vast distances, and the slay with reindeer, and sometimes there would even be snow blocking the door. So they'd have to drop the mushrooms down the chimney, and these would be the gifts and offerings. They'd be traveling a long time. So you'd give the shaman food or leave them snacks. So if that plays in a lot.
And then there's actually, well-documented bits of the reindeers are well known for eating Amanita mushrooms and having a journey. And then there'll be very hyper and kicking and running around the fields and flying around, and sometimes the shaman would drink the urine of the reindeer that ingested the Amanita mushrooms. And so you see different connections for how they were flying together. And that was really a big part of, the development of Santa as this character.
Lana: You're listening to plant love. Radio episode number 73.
Intro
Lana: Hello Friends. I hope you're doing well. This year many of us have been paying a lot more attention to building up our immune system. One of the strategies that I've been using personally is medicinal mushrooms. I have recorded several episodes on the topic before, and will include the links to those in the show notes, but I'm especially excited to share this new interview with Dr. Lindsay Chimileski with you today.
Lindsay is a naturopathic physician, acupuncturist, registered herbalist, naturalist, counselor writer, and public speaker. She advocates for natural and traditional Chinese medicine, nutrition, botanical medicine, and above all, the appreciation and awe of nature. Dr. Chimileski owns and practices at Hawthorne holistic health.
She's an expert in local plant identification and continues to explore the world of mushrooms. Working closely with one of her mentors Dr. Eugene Zampieron, Lindsay leads excursions through Jamaican jungle, educating and studying the plant medicine with locals who use it and explore their medical application.
Dr. Chimileski is an adjunct faculty at the University of Bridgeport, where she redesigned and teaching the botanical medicine curriculum and advanced nutrition courses. She recharges by spending time in nature, greenhouses, hiking, and practicing yoga.
Listeners of this Plant Love Radio episode, interested in diving deeper will have an opportunity to get 10% off on mushroom grow kits and Lindsay's classes at Fungi Ally. To get the discount, please head over to https://ko-fi.com/plantloveradio, and look for the post to this interview.
To find all the resources discussed in today's episode, please head over to the show notes at https://plantloveradio.com/ 73. Enjoy.
Lindsay. Good morning. How are you doing?
Lindsay: Good morning, Lana. I'm doing well. How about you?
Lana: I'm very good. Thank you. I'm really excited to have you here on the show. We connected during the last American herbalist Guild conference, where I attended a lecture you were giving on mushrooms and viruses, I was absolutely fascinated and knew that I have to introduce you to my audience. So thank you again for, for joining us.
Lindsay: Yeah, it was a lot of fun. That's great to hear.
Lana: before we start talking about mushrooms, tell us a little bit about how you got interested in naturopathic medicine and in acupuncture. What made you excited about natural approaches to help them healing?
How Lindsay got interested in Naturopathic Medicine and Acupuncture
Lindsay: Yeah, it's one of those things, like a lot of folks on this path where it feels like a little bit of everything always kind of led you in that direction. even if there wasn't a clear trigger that really made it happen. always just more naturally minded and into that world, I wanted to go into psychology. I really loved looking at like human patterns and how humans interact and take care of each other. my undergrad degree is in human development and family studies. And I started working at a psych hospital, getting excited about that and then pretty quickly learned that that just was not the environment for me - just so much medication, not a lot of skills being taught and that kind of thing. At that same time towards the end of my undergraduate degree was when I first learned about naturopathic medicine. I never did it as a child growing up or anything.
My mom had found out about it and told my older brother about it and it's just totally not the right fit for him. And then I was like, Oh wait, what? It was what I wanted to do and I just took that turn. And then in the first year of the naturopathic school, we had an intro course to acupuncture and same kind of thing. The theory was all interesting and captivating to be learning about that. But then once we got to play with doing some needling at the end of it, and the first time I did that and my partner, I was just like, Oh, there go my nights and weekends, I gotta get my masters in this too. And it all fuses together, one thing into another.
Lana: So where is your practice today?
Lindsay: I practice in Hamden, Connecticut. My practice is called Hawthorne holistic health. I went to school at University of Bridgeport, their naturopathic program, and I've been teaching the botanical medicine program there for five years.
Lana: So what type of patients do you typically see?
Lindsay: It's pretty mixed. you know, there'll be, it seems like things sometimes come in waves, but we have a general medicine practice. I have a partner there who does a little bit more like, physical medicine and bodywork as well as naturopathic medicine.
So we do a lot of nutritional counseling. We see pediatrics all the way through seniors. With acupuncture, I end up seeing a good amount of like fertility patients and pain management. I like acupuncture cause sometimes it gets people's foot in the door, they're there for a little pain problem. And then that can be something that they're like, Oh, this stuff actually works. And you can start to build confidence in it. And this whole evolution of people waking up to different aspects of their lives that play into their pain or whatever the imbalance is. So that's always a fun thing too.
Lana: That's wonderful. So today we will talk about one aspect of natural medicine related to immune support. But as a naturopathic physician you typically think of the entire system, the whole rather than one category of plants, one mushroom or one symptom. So could you talk a little bit about your philosophy and just overall recommendations for someone who is seeking you out for support for their immune system?
Overall philosophy on immune system support
Lindsay: Yeah. So whatever the condition is we're trained to approach from this vitalistic perspective of correcting the whole system, identifying whatever the imbalance is, giving the body, what it needs to correct that correcting nutritional deficiencies, and balancing out any obstacles to cure.
So if there's a bad habit or if there's a food allergy or something else, that's kind of drawing on the systems reserves a stealth pathogen, Lyme infection, whatever it is. And we'll go back and make sure we dig through the history to find what might be a part of that. But for the general immune system, it's going to be more basic and just giving the body the building blocks of what it's needs - a nice clean whole foods based diet is going to be the best way to do that. I'm super big on nutritional counseling in my own life and with my patients, that's just the foundation. So anytime that we're supplementing or taking vitamins, that's to make up for whatever those deficiencies are. So that's super fundamental to me. And then we had this whole beautiful world of the plant allies that can kind of help us and boost us in different ways at times, too.
Lana: That's lovely. Thank you. So, as you're talking about the plant allies, and this is one of the area, of a very strong interest for you, let's narrow it down a little bit. If our listeners check out your social media and I'll ask you to give us your accounts a little bit later on, they will see a lot of pictures of medicinal mushrooms. Tell us why and how your interest in mushrooms have developed.
Lindsay: Yeah. So, you know, definitely getting outside and being in nature is a big part of therapy and wellness for me. And as fundamental, and as you get out there and you're starting to identify plants and you're falling down that rabbit hole and you have to learn, different patterns. You're naturally going to see more and more mushrooms because you're looking at these small details, your eyes kind of change as you train them when you're out there, looking for things in nature.
And I really love that as a mindfulness tool and a therapy. It brings you out of the busy-ness cause you're just like, what's that, what's that and start to identify things. So as I got more and more versed with the plant habitat around me, I started noticing mushrooms more and diving into that whole realm as well. And then it just snowballs cause they're really captivating and fun. And how this whole other world that you can learn about. And then of course, they've got this potent medicinal quality that's been used for thousands of years that we really see so important in our modern circumstances.
Lana: I think I told you I was born in Eastern Europe and lot of people back home are really microphiles, which means they really like mushrooms. And when I came here to the United States, I learned that a lot of people are kind of afraid of mushrooms. So, it's been really fascinating for me to explore mushrooms through my personal interest in herbal medicine and recognizing that there are indeed a lot of people that appreciate mushrooms here as well.
Mushroom categorization
So when I think of mushrooms I typically categorize them in my mind in several categories. So there are edible medicinal, poisonous and hallucinogenic mushrooms. How do you typically think of mushrooms or categories and how do you recommend others to process the whole field of mycology?
Lindsay: Yeah, I think that those are some of the basics there. And then you want to think even within the edible range, that only probably a small percentage of those that are edible are those choice edibles and the ones that people are using in farm to table restaurants and those kinds of things.
And then there's a small fraction of the ones that are going to be are more commonly farmed ones and just generally out there in the culinary world. I think it's something like five to 10% of mushrooms are toxic. So there's really this over-exaggeration of the toxicity and the fears around mushrooms.
And that's like you said so different from culture to culture. Even certain mushrooms will be deemed as poisonous in one culture. And another one will have a whole process for how to use them and use them in a safe way, whatever that is. So that can be a big difference you see as well. And then really a large portion of the mushrooms are just unknown their edibility.
And some people are okay with that. Some people might get a little bit of gastritis. So they're not as toxic or deadly as we might think, even though they might not be desirable culinary ones. So there's definitely an exaggeration of the fears around mushrooms a little bit. And then the best way to combat those fears is through getting familiar with looking at mushrooms and being able to identify the poisonous ones so you know that those are the ones that you do not ingest.
No mushroom is poisonous to the touch. So even the death angel, you can touch that, you can look at it, you can get your hands on it to identify it and really become familiar with what one it is, but you just would not ingest it obviously.
And I think the mystery around mushrooms and the fact that some do make you hallucinate and that some we don't even know if they're edible or not. Like all of those question marks are what make people so afraid too or other folks so intrigued.
Mushrooms and the immune system
Lana: I mentioned that, I attended your lecture on, mushrooms and viruses. And even though there are many uses of mushrooms that are not related to immune system, like endocrine, cognitive, cardiovascular support, today I want to concentrate a little bit more on the immune system. And so my first question related to this is what does the science tell us about different mushroom compounds and their benefits?
Lindsay: The literature and the research right now, it's continually growing, we're having a huge mushroom boom. So it's getting more and more, of course, focused on viral needs right now as well. But historically they've been used for viruses forever. There was a lot of studies that kind of popularized this with looking at immunocompromised populations, with like HIV patients and opportunistic infections, like gingivitis. And these things what brings the system down when they're immunocompromised, this is also true for cancer patients.
And so we see a lot of the research in that realm where it's able to boost the immune system to fight off these opportunistic infections and viruses while still not interfering with a cancer treatment or the antiretroviral drug therapies and those kinds of things. And in fact, the mushrooms also are super antioxidant and good for the liver and can help detox some of the effects of those heavier medications too.
So that's one area where it got more and more popularized, but there's research on Reishi being effective against HPV virus, dengue fever, hand foot and mouth disease. So many different viral infections that there's a variety of trials on. And some of those trials are going to be Petri dish style of like Reishi versus the virus in a Petri dish. And then some are more on the clinical studies, where we see it actually happening in practice, helping folks with their immune system and increasing their CD4 cell counts and increasing their natural killer cells and boosting the immune system in that way.
Lindsay's approach to recommending medicinal mushrooms
Lana: That's really fascinating. So you've mentioned Reishi. Do you have a few mushrooms that you always think about? What are your favorites among medicinal mushrooms that can be especially helpful and useful for your patients?
Lindsay: So with a lot of the medicinal mushrooms, the one of the major active constituents is the beta glucans. And these are polysaccharides that are active in mushrooms, and those are actually a part of the mushroom structure. So almost all of our medicinal mushrooms are going to have these beta glucans that are the active part and that's what's boosting the immune system.
So that's where we see this overlap. We're really eating any non-toxic mushroom is going to be beneficial for the immune system in that way. So then through my naturopathic glasses or Chinese medicine glasses perspective, I'm looking at people's constitutions and what other patterns might be off, what other areas of weakness they have to then kind of fine tune where I want to direct that mushroom.
So if it's somebody who's maybe a little bit anxious or having insomnia, or on that side of things that we want to kind of use some calming agents, maybe we use Reishi. If it's somebody who is deficient and tired and needs more of a boost, maybe it's something more stimulating, like Cordyceps.
[00:16:00]And then otherwise just using them to kind of boost the immune system for those beta glucans in general. A mix of mushrooms - Lion's mane of course, kind of bringing it towards the neuro health side of things. So maybe it's somebody who were worried about viruses and they have a history of chronic Lyme where they have concerns about their neuro health and cognitive health resulting from that. Then we could use Lion's mane is the one that we really want to boost immune system with there.
Lana: For example, you mentioned reishi and cordyceps, and so those are medicinal mushrooms that are not really part of your culinary use, right? So those are not the things that they will put in your omelet put in your stew, but things like Lion's mane and Shiitake and various other ones you can actually cook with, right?
Lindsay: Yeah. So I'm definitely a huge fan of telling people to eat a ton of mushrooms all the time. I think that they're great. And they add a lot of flavor to the meal without adding cholesterol and other bad stuff, and of course they boost the immune system. And some of these medicinal mushrooms, even like our reishi mushroom, actually the best way to get those beta glucans out is a hot water extraction, which is a fancy way of saying a nice tea or a broth, right.
So, what you can do with something like reishi is make a change of season soup, where you combine it with a little bit of astragalus, maybe goji berries and some Shiitakis, and cook it on a slow cooker for a long time and get a nice mushroom broth. And then you can use that to flavor your rice, or you can sip on it throughout the week or freeze ice cubes of it.
However you want to use that the same way that folks would use a bone broth to have this generally immune stimulating food in the diet with some of those harder mushrooms that aren't typically in there.
There's other aspects if you're looking for more rounded out aspects of the constituents and we want some of the triterpenoids like in Reishi and Chaga, then you want to use a tincture to get those out.
So you might pay attention to some of those things, but as the basis for your immune health, it's really eating a lot of them. I'm a fan of in general and the diet variety is always good. So kind of switching through you get a more robust spectrum of those constituents, less likely to develop any sort of sensitivity when you have a lot of versatility in the diet. So I'm a fan of doing that and then kind of having that be your wellness formula.
And then if something's happening, if you start to feel sick, if you're traveling, if you're exposed, then you have something as a tincture or a stronger agent, a capsule or something to boost that a little bit more in those times of need.
Lana: That's a great recommendation. Thank you. I have to share with you something. I have tried making Reishi broth, I think once or twice and every time it comes out very, very bitter. And so I am okay figuring out how to drink it, but I am very hesitant about introducing this for my family, because I don't think that they will be very happy exploring this. Any thoughts or any tips on this?
Lindsay: Did you use anything else in it or was it straight Reishi?
Lana: I think it was Reishi primarily. So it sounds like you're saying add few additional things.
Lindsay: Yeah. And a few additional things to balance it out. And I'll even put like my onions and garlic and Rosemary, or something like that in it too, to make it kind of more broth like to carry that flavor out. I mean it's still going to be strong, but I haven't had it been too, too bitter when I do it that way.
Lana: Okay. I was not prepared for how bitter it was initially. And I was like, Oh my God, I spoiled my entire soup batch. So, it was a good learning moment right there. Mushrooms for treatment versus prevention
So, we talked a little bit about mushrooms you use for wellness versus something that happens when something is going on acutely. Are mushrooms typically well separated in terms of the treatment and prevention, or are we using a lot of similar mushrooms and just using them as different preparations?
Lindsay: Yeah. I mean, I think that there is a lot of overlap, most of your mushrooms like I said are going to have those beta glue cans. So they're going to have that immuno stimulating celebrated effects that they're kind of loved for. And then in higher doses that's going to help specifically with fighting an infection.
So it's generally going to be boosting your immune cells that are keeping things out of the system. But then if you get an acute infection, those beta glucans can also help flag the invader that can help stimulate the cells that are removing the invader. So it works on that side of the acute infection as well.
Amphoteric effects of mushrooms
And then what's interesting about them is that they also have this amphoteric effects where they can balance out an auto-immune condition. So we're not as worried with our medicinal mushrooms about them overstimulating the immune system and triggering an immune response like that. And actually, cyclosporin which is the medication that's used to help prevent rejection of a kidney transplant. So super immunosuppressive, right? Turning down the immune system so it doesn't attack the body's new kidney comes from Cordyceps and our mold related to Cordyceps. So that's proof that there are these certain constituents that can be really balancing in that effect too.
And we see certain constituents like that one or others that are then turned into medications because of their ability to either stop transcription of a virus or stop it from replicating or stop it from getting into the host cell, so it can't replicate. So there's many different mechanisms that it can target the viral response with, but still balance and not create an over auto-immune response either.
Lana: That's really fascinating. And so you use the word amphoteric and I'm worried that some of our listeners might not know what it is. So, can you tell us what amphoteric means?
Lindsay: So an amphoteric is going to be something that's really balancing and it has this almost too good to be true effect of stimulating a system that's deficient while, not overstimulating a system that doesn't need to be stimulated or maybe calming down even an overstimulated system. So we see this with like Cordyceps in the immune system, and then with Reishi, a great example of this is how it can be helpful for focus and attention and stimulating in the morning time to help with meditation or to help with schoolwork or whatever it is. But then it's also has this calming and tranquilizing effect that it can still be beneficial for falling asleep at night and not overstimulating the system.
Lana: I really love this example. And I purchase Reishi from a company where they have a tincture . And so the tincture I love in the evening, but they also, have something that they use as a Coffee substitute, so it's a beverage. And so I completely can see how you can use the beverage, instead, or with your coffee and then utilize the elixir later in the evening for the calming effect. So that's very interesting. Thank you.
Lindsay: Yeah. And that's how it is with our adaptogenic herbs. It's the same or similar constituents that we see in the adaptogenic mushrooms. So those are those triterpenoids, which are more hormone like action. So they can stimulate these receptors and target a receptor, but maybe hit on it weaker than the body naturally would.
So if a system is already overstimulated, it will help block that action of the body's natural, higher response. But if the system is efficient, you're still getting a mild stimulation. So you can help boost the system in that way as well.
Lana: Very cool. Very cool. Thank you.
Cordyceps
Lana: You mentioned Cordyceps a couple of times. What is Cordyceps?
Lindsay: So Cordyceps is the mushroom, that is more well known in Planet Earth documentaries, and such things, because it can take over an insect's mind and kind of makes the insect climb up to the best spot on the tree or the ideal circumstances conditions. And then it will take over the bug and grow into habits fruiting body, and the mushroom that comes [00:24:00] out. And it's been used in Chinese medicine for 5,000 years probably. And it's really energizing and stimulating and has all these great immuno stimulating effects as well. But there's tons of great, interesting information on the Cordyceps. The ants when they get infected out in the field and it gets infected with Cordyceps, if it comes back to the group, the soldier ants will carry it out and we'll remove it from the group and kill it. And then they kill themselves rather than bringing the cordyceps back to the group. And so it really has this potent interaction and that type of concept with how these fungi can affect insects is actually something that Paul Stamets has a lot of interesting work in terms of pest control. So things like termites and, issues in the house with pets using a mushroom spore to just scare those pests away rather than these harsh, toxic agents are another cool whole world of mushrooms.
Lana: Really really fascinating. I think BBC, and there are a few other documentaries that are showing how these mushrooms are growing out of the heads of these insects. So really spooky Halloween like imagery for you out there.
Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. I've definitely seen some funny Cordyceps mushroom Halloween costumes out there too.
Lana: But because there is such a limited supplies of Cordyceps, do you have any suggestions on where to purchase them ?
Lindsay: So cordyceps is definitely one of the big ones that if you get it here, it's going to be mycelium and it's usually going to be Cordyceps militaries which is a different species than the Cordyceps sinensis, which is the more classic Chinese medicine one that's used. And the militaris still has a lot of good research on it. It seems to act in a similar way. So that's an okay substitute. But the question is the mycelium. There are certain extracts of it that are grown in the pure liquid fermentation tank. And so that's going to be your better option because they can drain off the liquid and then they get pure mycelium rather than it being mixed with a lot of substrate.
Lana: Okay. Very good. Thank you.
Quick break
Lana: Just a quick pause here to remind you that listeners of this episode of Plant Love Radio interested in diving deeper in mushroom learning and mushroom medicine will get an opportunity to get 10% off on mushroom grow kits and Lindsay's glasses at Fungi Ally. To get the discount. Please head over to https://ko-fi.com/plantloveradio, and look for the post on this interview.
The winner of our last episode with Lily Mazzarella is Jess. Jess, please reach out to me at Lana@lanacamiel.com. Congratulations.
Getting comfortable with mushroom foraging [00:26:48]
Lana: So how did you really start thinking about mushrooms and becoming comfortable with them. Just by looking ? Did you have books? Did you have resources? Did you have guides? How did you get started?
Lindsay: Yeah. So in my education we got the basic ideas of that the mushrooms are very immuno stimulating. You learn about them with a lot of research related to treating viruses and HIV and immunocompromised populations. So we got kind of a brief introduction to them, but then once I was out in the field and actually starting to touch and see them was when you get more captivated. And for me, that's the same with plants.
Once you get this relationship with something, you can really differentiate between all that research. Sometimes it's just words, even if it's really cool words, when you have like a friend kind of hanging on, it makes a lot more sense. so I just started doing a lot of my own identification and, and looking at things over and over.
It's a really good idea to get involved with different mycology groups and to go out on field forays when those are going. So you can just walk out into the woods with people who know the mushrooms and you just collect everything you see. They'll lay them all out on a table and start identifying things.
But if you can't do that, even the local Facebook groups, mycology groups in your area will be great because then you can see, Oh, somebody just saw this pop up. The next day you see the same thing. Because mushrooms are going to be very seasonally influenced and influenced by the weather.
So you have this kind of like alert system if you're on one of those networks or a local Instagram, whatever it is that a few folks that are posting some of the things that are around you, and then you start to see them and put a name to them and build that relationship. And of course books, books are super helpful. Mushrooms can be one of those things that you can have six different books and you still won't find the one mushroom you find.
And so that could be a part of it, but you'll find a book that ends up being the one you keep with you or little field guides, that kind of thing.
Lana: That's awesome. Thank you.
Mushroom storage, preparation
Lana: So we talked a little bit earlier about foraging and I kind of want to bring you back to this for a second. We talked about how to figure out which mushrooms are safe to eat, but what I want to ask you is how do you store them? How do you cook [00:29:00] them? What are your best tips on foraging from that perspective? So let's say we have someone who already knows how to identify mushrooms or goes with a specific group of people that know how to do that. So what would be the next step?
Lindsay: Yeah. So actually a big portion of the hospitalizations from mushrooms come from improper storage. So what you want to do with your mushrooms is keep them mostly in brown paper bags in the fridge. Of course, if you're wild foraging, something you want to clean it off. You can get cute little mushrooming knives that have a little brush on one end of it to kind of get off the dirt in any bark pieces. And then it will have a knife to cut it nice and clean.
Certain mushrooms, it's a good practice to leave a little bit it behind so it can keep growing and release spores and that side of things too. When you're out in the field foraging, another little tip I like is to use a bag that has holes in it, so you can be kind of dropping spores as you're walking back to your car and spreading that along the way too. But then once you get home, you want to clean it and then just keep it in a brown paper bag in the fridge.
you can freeze them as well, or you can prep them and then freeze them. If you're getting a big score of chicken of the woods or something. And that's really only going to be a short season where that's available, so you can prep it out in that way as well. But if you keep them in the Brown bags in the fridge, you have a bit longer span of when that'll be good for and they'll end up drying out and then you can rehydrate them and still use them in a safe way versus them getting slimy and other things growing on it. If it's in a plastic container.
Lana: So you mentioned keeping them in Brown bags. And I have been doing that even when I buy mushrooms at the farmer's market, when they dry out, can you actually put them in a glass jar and keep them out of a refrigerator?
Lindsay: Probably if they get dry enough, I've never done that specifically myself, but I don't see why you couldn't, if they're totally dried out versus just cooking them, rehydrating them a little bit and cooking them.
Lana: I just remember from my childhood, all these mushroom threads where you would have things hanging for your barley soup or something like that.
Lindsay: Could put them in a dehydrator or, dry them out in the sun or something like that as well. You get a little bit extra vitamin D if you dry them out in the sun, that's another little boost.
Lana: Okay. That's good to know. And you mentioned freezing them, so you're freezing them when they're still fresh. So you just clean them, chop them, and just then use them for stews and things of that type?.
Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. You can just, you just chop them up and, you know, Put them in the freezer and then you can portion it out and use it like any other prepped food or I'll sometimes make broth or rice with it. And then freeze that side of things with it kind of chopped up in there, so I can use that for the next few months.
Lana: Okay. That's a great idea. Thank you.
Purchasing edible and medicinal mushrooms
Lana: All of this is fascinating, but I suspect that we might not be able to persuade some of our listeners to go foraging just because they might not have a lot of confidence with this. So what is the best recommendation for them? Are there good [00:32:00] places to buy edible and medicinal mushrooms? Can you talk about the different types of products and what are your thoughts on that?
Lindsay: Yeah, so I think if you're not confident out in the field, there's no reason to force it. You can still get out there and look at them and pay attention and start to open your eyes to them, but you don't have to be collecting them either. It's fun to identify them, even if you have no intention of eating them.
So I think that in getting them into the lifestyle, then you simply can just go use button mushrooms, your common button mushroom. You want it to be organic if possible, good soil that has grown on et cetera.
Your mushrooms are going to be like sponges. So that's also true if you're out wild foraging, you want to make sure, you know what it's growing on. They're going to absorb minerals in a good way, but also heavy metals or things like that if there is exposure to that. But the simplest way is just to eat a lot of the button mushroom.
They're still super high in the beta glucans. They're still gonna stimulate your immune system, there are studies on them having benefits for aromatase inhibition related to breast cancer. And all these complex things is just from that simple standard mushroom, portabella is being in the same family and are actually the same mushroom in a different stage and that kind of thing as well.
So the ones that are available are still gonna be good to use. And then if you're not using them or making broths or getting into those stages of it, using a tincture is a great way to get most of these.
And that's kind of a safe way to get a well-rounded supplement without having to know the specifics of which ones are better from alcohol or not. If you've got a dual extract, you're kind of covering your bases there and then still eating a lot of the common button ones in your diet for more and more of those beta glucans. that's how I would recommend it.
It's kind of, a wild West out there in the mushroom world for supplements. And there's been a lot of changes and moving parts in that realm with the mushroom boom that's happening. And you'll see a lot of products out there that are labeled as mushrooms. And now they're cracking down on not being able to call it a mushroom if it's mycelium based.
Mycelium and mycelium-based products
Lana: What is mycelium?
Lindsay: Yeah. So that's the other important part when you're out in the field and here. The mycelium is like the root network of mushrooms. So anytime you see a log and you break it apart and there's all that white Webby connections, that's actually fungal mycelium, the root system.
And so that's this whole other beautiful complex system that is so vast. And can just boggle your mind getting into facts about the mycelium. It's basically like a colon outside of the body for the mushroom. So it's how they exchange their nutrients with the world. So it's connected to whatever the substrate that it's growing on it is it's connected to the trees around, the plants around for a nutrient exchange system. And then that's kind of what starts the mushroom and stays there as it has the fruiting body, which is the reproductive part of it.
Now, traditionally, when we think about Chinese medicine and all of our elders throughout the world who were using mushrooms, they weren't going out and collecting the mycelium, right? Nobody was pulling those filaments out of the bark and using that as a medicine, they were collecting the fruiting bodies because that's what we saw. And that's what we identified with. So historically the use has been the fruiting bodies.
Now, as folks are trying to farm more of these and figure out ways to grow them sustainably and in ways that are not damaging the environment and all of these things that are good, we ended up having most of the products that are available in America at least are mycelium based mushroom products that can be good and more and more research is being done on mycelium.
And we're seeing interesting things coming out on that. Like I said it's like a colon or like a digestive tract for the mushrooms. So there's lots of enzymatic activity and new and exciting constituents there, but it's not as much of those beta glucans that are the really celebrated part of the mushrooms for the immune system. Probably still has good benefits, but isn't quite the same.
And then the other piece with the mycelium that you need to pay attention to as a consumer or as a practitioner... If it's mycelium that's grown in a pure liquid fermentation tank where you can actually separate it out or what's much more common is that that mycelium is grown on a substrate, right? So something like hay or really commonly oats or rice. And then it's this spongy material it's not separated out from the mycelium. So whatever your product is, has 50%, 70%, 10%, whatever it is of that is actually oats or whatever the growth substrate is. To me is more of this great fermented food, which we know has lots of benefits than it being like a specifically a mushroom supplement.
Lana: Okay. Okay. Are there certain companies that you stay away from, or other certain companies that you prefer to purchase, knowing that they are very clear about separating the fruiting bodies and the mycelium. How, how do you approach this dilemma?
Lindsay: Yeah, it's a lot of reading labels and trying to get into there. And then even from the practitioner side, with what I'm feeling in my office or keeping for my patients in the office, trying to find out exactly where things are being sourced from, that side of it. Cause it can be a bit difficult.
And that's where actually it's really nice and great if you can find a mushroom person who's local, who's growing them or foraging them local, you know that's going to be fruiting body than it being this other product. So I like folks to reach out to their neighborhood herbalist and that sort of thing. Their health food stores there's usually somebody local who's growing some mushrooms or doing something exciting, especially as it gets bigger and bigger, and,
Lana: And farmers' markets, right?
Lindsay: Yeah, exactly. Farmers' markets. So it's continually growing and then you can still connect with those folks from different areas I'm sure around the country as well.
Certain products are definitely more popular than others that are really trendy. But it just depends. I ended up going local or that's where I like personally I'll go and I'll buy mushrooms and cook with them. Cause I know what I'm getting then rather than it being this expensive powder, that's really mostly oats or something like that. I work with a guy named Willie out of Massachusetts who has company named Fungi Ally.
And I teach some medicinal mushroom classes with him and he sells grow kits and that side of things. So also if you're not out there forging, you can still grow some at home and that's relatively easy with certain grow kits. So that's another option for people as well.
But jumping back to another important aspect of the mycelium and powder debate of mushrooms, because it is so popular now is that you want to know if that powder is raw or if it's extracted or there's any process that's making those beta glucans more active as well. Because the raw powder is going to be harder for your body to digest. So folks are buying super expensive, wonderful, raw mycelium powder mushrooms, throwing it in their smoothie and probably not digesting that much of it not getting as much benefit as they could, if it was a different extract or something.
Lana: So you are reminding us that cooking mushrooms is an important [00:39:00] step in making them more, digestable and more bioavailable and all of that.
Lindsay: Yeah. When you look at the structure of the mushroom, the beta glucans, that immune stimulating constituent that we care about is right in the structure of it with the chitin and these other insoluble fibers. So you have to kind of cook that and that's going to help release those beta glucans to be more active.
So raw mushrooms, you're not going to get as much wonderful umami flavor and you're also not going to get as much of the beta glucans and that immuno stimulating effect.
That's awesome. That's very useful. Thank you. So for someone who is excited about the topic, but still feels very new to this, do you have a couple of favorite resources that you could recommend us?
So, I mean, it's definitely a vast world out there. I've got a few books. There's one, The Fungal Pharmacy by Robert Rogers. That's a great one, like medicinal and a field guide as well. So lots of good pictures. It's a little bit of a [00:40:00] bigger one. So it's, not maybe your pocket guide, but that's a good one.
I like of course your Peterson's or your National Audubon field guides are always good. as certain sources there. Of course, Host Defense and Fungi Perfecti and Paul Stamets materials are all awesome and amazing. He's got great documentaries on mushrooms and there's lots of that popping up and Planet Earth or different documentaries. We see a lot about mushrooms there.
Kind of depends what part you're excited about. And then that can bring you down the rabbit hole to learn all the other parts of it. If you're somebody who wants to be out in the field foraging, or if you're somebody who wants to learn about the cool research that's being done or you're somebody who wants to have it in the kitchen, there's plenty of resources for how to do that once you kind of tiptoe into the world.
Lana: That's wonderful. Thank you.
Mushroom and Holiday Folklore
Lana: Since, this podcast will come out in December, can you tell us a little bit about Christmas folklore related to mushrooms?
Lindsay: So this is a fun bit too, and it's, interesting once you start to look at it. It all lines up a little bit too well. So the idea of Santa and his red and white coat really actually comes from these mushroom shamans who are carrying Amanita muscaria mushrooms throughout Siberia and different areas, and bringing those to people throughout the holidays. And they would travel vast distances, and the slay with reindeer, and sometimes there would even be snow blocking the door. So they'd have to drop the mushrooms down the chimney, and these would be the gifts and offerings. They'd be traveling a long time. So you'd give the shaman food or leave them snacks. So if that plays in a lot. And then there's actually, well-documented bits of the reindeers are well known for eating Amanita mushrooms and having a journey.
And then there'll be very hyper and kicking and running around the fields and flying around, so that is a piece of it. And actually folks or the reindeer will ingest or drink the urine and that kind of thing of folks who ingest the Amanita mushrooms, or sometimes the shaman would drink the urine of the reindeer that ingested the Amanita mushrooms. And so you see all these different connections for how they were flying together. And that was really a big part of, the development of Santa as this character.
Lana: Amazing, absolutely amazing. How interesting, how things come out and make a little bit more sense for all of us.
Lindsay: Yup. And our mushrooms were just a bit of it all.
Getting in touch with Lindsay
Lana: So, Lindsay, as we're coming to the end of this, conversation, I have a couple of more questions for you. So one of them is how do our listeners learn more about you and from you? And then do you have any closing thoughts for us, maybe something that we didn't address or didn't discuss or anything that you want to leave us with?
Lindsay: All right. I'm probably most active on Instagram at the [00:43:00] botanical doctor. That's my handle. And we'll share that, my practice is Hawthorne holistic health. So anybody who's interested in consults or pursuing a visit in that way can contact me through that.
And I also offer mushroom classes. So we'll share the links for that. And I think we're going to do a discount code for the class offering as well if people are more interested in that realm.
Lana: That's wonderful. Thank you. And so any closing thoughts or anything that you would like to leave us with?
Parting thoughts
Lindsay: I think the other thing that, is exciting to celebrate right now in the mushroom world is what's happening in terms of psilocybe and entheogenic medicine for therapy. And that it was just recognized in Oregon and legalized as a mushroom therapy. And that's just so powerful that we're starting to see that natural medicines can be these therapies.
And we see more and more research coming out, but an interesting study looking at one single dose of psilocybe in a therapeutic setting having benefits for up to 4.5 years for people who are going through cancer and who are having existential dread and fear of death and these kinds of things we don't have other tools for that. This is where we need to go to our elders and our fungi wisdom and our plant medicine wisdom and look for those different things that are coming from the mushroom spirits, if you will, or that realm of wisdom, then just trying to say that we know how to deal with it.
So it's pretty exciting to see that this is actually being legitimized as a medicine and that it's getting that proper recognition and that helps to combat some of the fear as well around it.
Lana: And how would someone learn more about this?
Lindsay: So there's like lots of organizations that are more active in getting these therapies legalized and other entheogens and plant medicines, decriminalization movements, that are pretty easy to find. And it's up and coming, John Hopkins does a lot of research on the entheogens and mushroom therapy. And, [00:45:00] we're just going to see more and more coming out on that I think.So.
Lana: Wonderful. Lindsay. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time, for your experience, for your expertise. It was absolutely wonderful and fascinating. Thank you.
Lindsay: Thank you so much.
Thank you for listening!
Lana: Thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you have enjoyed this conversation with Dr. Lindsay Chimileski. To find all the resources discussed in today's episode, please head over to the show notes at https://plantloveradio.com/ 73.
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